Obama, afraid to take a stand

It is pretty clear to me, and this is, of course, my opinion, that Obama is afraid to take any sort of stand that might help him in his ambition to get to the next higher elected office.  
In 2003/2004 I supported him in his senate race.  As a member of DFA, I did what I could to promote his candidacy.  
At the time there was a minor kerfluffle when it was discovered that he was a member of the DLC.  That of course was not going to play well with his main primary and earliest support, DFA.  So he claimed that he was put on the list without his permission. I did not believe him. And since then he has proven to be a rather DLC type of guy, his support of Lieberman, his lecture to dkos about playing nice with republicans and reaching out to compromise with people you disagree with, have convinced me more than ever that he was indeed a minor member of the DLC.  
In fact I couldn't care less about membership in the DLC, lots of good people belonged to the organization at some point.  It is the bullshit and political calculation that bothers me.

So here is another instance of Obama not standing for anything but his own ambition.  While in the IL senate he skipped way to many votes or voted present whenever the legislation was something that could come back to bite him in the ass while trying to get elected to some higher position.
Come over and read what the NYTimes has to say on the issue.

In 1999, Barack Obama was faced with a difficult vote in the Illinois legislature -- to support a bill that would let some juveniles be tried as adults, a position that risked drawing fire from African-Americans, or to oppose it, possibly undermining his image as a tough-on-crime moderate.

In the end, Mr. Obama chose neither to vote for nor against the bill. He voted "present," effectively sidestepping the issue, an option he invoked nearly 130 times as a state senator.

He's on the news this morning saying it is "only" 130 votes out of thousands.  But that doesn't convince me it is okay.  The issues he seemed to duck are those that would hurt his future ambitions. Read the rest of the article to see if you agree...

Link to Times article...

"If you are worried about your next election, the present vote gives you political cover," said Kent D. Redfield, a professor of political studies at the University of Illinois at Springfield. "This is an option that does not exist in every state and reflects Illinois political culture."

The vote on the juvenile-justice bill appears to be a case when Mr. Obama, who represented a racially mixed district on the South Side of Chicago, faced pressure. It also occurred about six months before he announced an ultimately unsuccessful campaign against a popular black congressman, Bobby L. Rush.

State Senator Christine Radogno, a Republican, was a co-sponsor of the bill to let children as young as 15 be prosecuted as adults if charged with committing a crime with a firearm on or near school grounds.

Voting no on legislation to try 15 year olds as adults seems to be a no brainer to me. I think Obama probably feels the same way but didn't have the courage to vote against that popular legislation.

The measure passed both houses overwhelmingly. In explaining his present vote on the floor of the Senate, Mr. Obama said there was no proof that increasing penalties for young offenders reduced crime, though he acknowledged that the bill had fairly unanimous support.

"Voting present was a way to satisfy those two competing interests," Ms. Radogno said in a telephone interview.

Thom Mannard, director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence, said political calculation could have figured in that vote.

"If he voted a flat-out no," Mr. Mannard said, "somebody down the road could say Obama took this vote and was soft on crime."

Among those, Mr. Obama did not vote yes or no on a bill that would allow certain victims of sexual crimes to petition judges to seal court records relating to their cases. He also voted present on a bill to impose stricter standards for evidence a judge is permitted to consider in imposing a criminal sentence.

On the sex crime bill, Mr. Obama cast the lone present vote in a 58-to-0 vote.

Mr. Obama's campaign said he believed that the bill violated the First Amendment. The bill passed 112-0-0 in the House and 58-0-1 in the Senate.

To be fair he claimed that the bill "might be" unconstitutional.  but in reality this type of protection has been offered to sex crime victims for decades in other places.  So I am not sure if I can accept his explanation.  

In 2000, Mr. Obama was one of two senators who voted present on a bill on whether facts not presented to a jury could later be the basis for increasing an offender's sentence beyond the ordinary maximum.

State Representative Jim Durkin, a Republican who was a co-sponsor of the bill, said it was intended to bring state law in line with a United States Supreme Court decision that nullified a practice of introducing new evidence to a judge in the sentencing phase of the trial, after a jury conviction on other charges.

The bill sailed through both chambers. Out of 174 votes cast in the House and Senate, two were against and two were present, including Mr. Obama's.

"I don't understand why you would oppose it," Mr. Durkin said. "But I am more confused by a present vote."

Mr. Obama's campaign said he voted present to register his dissatisfaction with how the bill was put together.

OH COME ON.. why not just vote against the bill and say why you did?
I have to agree with Clinton, he is a talker not a doer.  But more than that I have to agree with my initial thoughts on him when he was first elected to the National Senate (with my help BTW), he is too ambitious and without much conviction except the conviction that he deserves to be President more than the people of his state deserve good representation.



Display:


I am going out for a little while (2.00 / 1)

so if I do not respond to comments right away that is why.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 08:53:16 AM EST

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

This "present" vote thing bothers me to no end. I don't have a problem with the "hope" and "working across lines" memes. But I have a problem when elected officials choose to not take a stand on issues. It makes me sick. The media has been very quite on this. The media should be the ones exposing it and reporting on it. Thank goodness the NY Times is on the story.


by lonnette33 on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 09:08:27 AM EST

well MSNBC has become (2.00 / 1)

Obama campaign central and CNN is too busy with missing white women stories and talking about pregnant Nickelodeon stars.  So we have to hope that print media will be somewhat balanced among the democratic and republican candidates.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 09:16:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well MSNBC has become (none / 0)

I'm glad someone else has noticed the bias at MSNBC. It seems to be getting worse.


by del on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well MSNBC has become (1.50 / 2)

Matthews and Scarborough go after Clinton on every show and appear on each other's shows to bash her and promote Obama.  
Tweety hates her, that is clear.  But I assume that Joe is working for the republican party.  Obama will be easiest to beat.

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 05:17:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He said that he "might have" voted (none / 0)

for the IWR if he was in the senate at the time.  Then he explained it away by saying he didn't want to undermine Kerry/Edwards.  What kind of conviction is that?  Plenty of democrats disagreed with Kerry and Edwards on their war vote but managed to go to bat for them in the election anyway.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 09:13:20 AM EST

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (2.00 / 1)

Please present all sides of the story, and not just the Hillary side.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_col umnists_ezorn/2007/12/disparagement-o.ht ml

http://thecapitolfaxblog.com/2007/12/04/ about-those-present-votes/


What would LBJ do?
by Socks The Cat on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 10:04:14 AM EST

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

If you want all sides of the story you should bring us facts not opinions- These links are to an opinion and a blog- Not the same.


Experience Counts-Hillary 08!
by ExperienceCounts on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 04:20:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (1.00 / 1)

please write your own diary and do it however you wish.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 05:19:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (2.00 / 1)

Hillary has voted Not Voting, Excused, Absent, or Present over 70 times as a U.S. Senator. Hey pot meet kettle.
Explain this
http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php ?can_id=55463

Come on how about a why I support Hillary diary.


John McCain: Drill, Drill, Surge!!!!!
by TennesseeGurl on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 10:38:35 AM EST

113 NV in 3 years (none / 0)

Yes, that is Obama's record. Take a look:

http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php ?can_id=9490

So, Hillary has 70 NV's in 7 years; while Obama has 113 NV's in 3 years.

Tell me again how good Obama is at taking a stand.

One example: on 11 bills during 2007 having to do with Civil Liberties and Civil Rights, Clinton has only one (1) NV. On those same 11 bills Obama has five (5) NV's. I don't see him taking a stand on this important issue. Do you?


by SF Bay on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 01:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama and education bills (none / 0)

Since Obama entered the Senate 8 education bills have come up for vote. He was NV on half, yes half of them. He did not vote on 4 of 8 education bills.
http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php ?can_id=9490

For comparison, 11 education bills have come up for vote since Hillary entered the Senate. She has 3 NV's. She she actually voted 73% of the time. Much better, don't you think?
http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php ?can_id=55463


by SF Bay on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:13:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Let's talk national security (none / 0)

Obama since he entered the Senate:

Of 24 National Security bills Obama is 9 NV's.
http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php ?can_id=9490

Clinton since she entered the Senate:

Of 27 National Security bills Clinton is 1 NV.
http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php ?can_id=55463

Obama failed to vote on over 1/3 of the National Security bills. Clinton missed just 1.

Tell, who spends more time on National Security issues?


by SF Bay on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:19:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you for all of that information (1.00 / 1)

good job.  it is clear who is showing up for votes and who is not. Obama is not.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 05:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thank you for all of that information (none / 0)

It should also be noted that, before this year, most of Hillary's missed votes were when her husband had a heart attack and was hospitalized for bypass surgery in New York.


by hwc on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 08:13:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thank you for all of that information (1.00 / 1)

thank you for reminding me of that.  She is and always has been an incredibly hard working and dedicated person.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 09:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (2.00 / 1)

He cannot take a stand - no spine!

Or maybe his community activists have a problem!


by pate on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 10:43:03 AM EST

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (2.00 / 1)

Or maybe your bias clouds your judgment.
Obama's record speaks for it's self. http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/0 7/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC. html

Happy Hankwanmas...


John McCain: Drill, Drill, Surge!!!!!
by TennesseeGurl on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 10:46:58 AM EST

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

Are you seriously comparing the State Senate record to U.S. Senate???


by del on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 04:17:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

Does Oprah know thaat he voted "present" for banning dult/sex shops near schools.  

All other IL senators voted yes.

I mean a simple issue lime this and you have to vote "present"

Sheesh!  What is wrong with this guy!

I would not trust oprah with my child  - if I had any - after this!


by pate on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 10:48:37 AM EST

Re: Obama, takes a stand (none / 0)

So you are against local jurisdiction of zoning rights?  You are in favor of the State overstepping its bounds?  


by Piuma on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:11:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, takes a stand (none / 0)

Absolutely NEAR SCHOOLS....especially in some urban areas!

This is a no brainer!

............


by pate on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:22:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, takes a stand (none / 0)

A no brainer as in not using your brain.  You are saying that the State should overstep its bounds and control what is for the local jurisdictions to decide.  Your "especially in some urban areas" doesn't even make sense in your argument.  That is why certain issues are Local government issues and should remain that way - what fits in a rural community does not always apply to an urban one.  That is what Obama had the courage and the leadership to stand up for, instead of going along with something which was both unconstitutional and wrong-headed in its practical application.  


by Piuma on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

Rezko probably owned strip clubs


by hwc on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (2.00 / 1)

At a time when our constitution has been subverted over and over again by the Bush Administration, it is quite astounding to read a diary where Obama is criticized for taking a constitutional stand, which can only be expressed accurately by taking a stand and voting present, instead of not voting or voting no.  As the Times article points out: Mr. Obama cast 4,000 votes in the Illinois Senate and used the present vote to protest bills that he believed had been drafted unconstitutionally or as part of a broader legislative strategy.

The Times article quoted actually explains quite well the reasons behind the 3% of votes where he voted present.  Among that 3% were:

1. "36 times when Mr. Obama was either the only state senator to vote present or was part of a group of six or fewer to vote that way." - This is the opposite of not taking a stand.  It is being willing to express yourself and stand alone in the crowd if necessary, exactly what he did in his defense of local zoning rights.

2. "In at least 45 instances, Mr. Obama voted with large numbers of fellow Democrats as part of the tactical skirmishing with Republicans over the budget." - This takes the relatively small figure of 3% down to 2%, and the total present votes to less than 100 out of 4000.

3. "Seven other times, he voted that way as part of a broad strategy devised by abortion rights advocates to counter anti-abortion bills."

The hysteria over the abortion present votes clearly shows the extent some will stoop to try to tear a candidate down.  It is the worst sort of cynical politics.  Pam Sutherland of Planned Parenthood has certainly been quoted enough times for anyone to know Obama was tremendously helpful and provided leadership in making sure these bills were not passed.  The Times presents a new person adding her voice to those objecting to the  smear tactics:


Lisa Madigan, the Illinois attorney general who was in the Illinois Senate with Mr. Obama from 1998 through 2002, said she and Mr. Obama voted present on the anti-abortion bills.

"It's just plain wrong to imply that voting present reflected a lack of leadership," Ms. Madigan said. "In fact, it was the exact opposite."


by Piuma on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:08:42 AM EST

Basic Math (none / 0)

I bet you're a good tennis player - excellent return of a weak serve.  Love - 15!  The Clinton camp innuendo campaign continues.

5 (insert your number) diaries about the same thing x 0 content = 0 story


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:37:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (2.00 / 1)

Obama's progressive bona-fides are very much in question because of this.  He seems to hedge his bets, and does not seem to care whether he hurts the progressive cause with this.    Some evidence:

The progressive rankings site Progressivepunch ranks him at 24 out of 49 Democrats when it comes to voting Progressive.

Here Progressivepunch's explanation on how they came up with their scoring system for progressive rankings:

The algorithm that we've used to come up with these progressive scores is as follows: We take ANY VOTE in which a majority of the progressives we've identified--so in the House say, if there were no absences, it would be 20 of the 39--voted in opposition to a majority of the Republican caucus and have that vote qualify for the database. The same process is used in the Senate. So, non-ideological votes such as National Groundhog Day: 429-0 with 6 absences, do not qualify for the database. ANY vote in which a majority of progressives in the progressive cohort listed just below here votes against a majority of Republicans qualifies for the database. The percentage of votes which qualify using this algorithm remains remarkably constant from one Congress to another, about half of all votes cast.

Obama's progressive ranking lifetime is 24th out of 49 Democratic Senators:

http://progressivepunch.yvod.com/members .jsp?search=selectScore&chamber=Sena te&scoreSort=lifetime

However, for 07/08, the current Congress, his ranking is only 43rd out of 49 Democratic Senators:

http://progressivepunch.yvod.com/members .jsp?search=selectScore&chamber=Sena te&scoreSort=current_congress

And, when it comes to voting "when the chips are down," meaning when the vote is very close and a small handful of Democratic Senators could have made a difference between a Progressive bill being passed or not?  Obama scores as the 44th Senator of 49 Democrats.  

http://progressivepunch.yvod.com/members .jsp?search=selectScore&chamber=Sena te&scoreSort=current_close

Part of the problem Obama has "showing up" as a true progressive is his tendency to hedge his bets, think purely political, not progressive.   A much smaller part is his many missed votes, but that by itself was not the deciding factor on Obama's poor progressive ranking.   Here the explanation from Progressivepunch how they treated missed votes:

Absences by members of Congress are penalized in scoring only if the margin was <10 votes in the Senate or <20 votes in the House.

That method is very fair, IMO.  If the margin is under 10 on a vote to bring a progressive bill to fruition, the Senate member, even when on the campaign trail, better be sure to put that aside and rush to the Senate to cast his vote.

To sum up, after starting off well in his first year, Obama's recent voting record is quite obviously non-progressive, with this year's record showing the opposite of a progressive, rather a more centrist, moderate, thus his ranking at a dismal 43rd position (dismal from a progressive point of view.)   It obviously has not helped that Obama missed as many votes as he did since he started running for president, but part of that appears calculated (i.e. Iran vote) and when the vote appears to be very close (margin under 10,) he better get back to the Senate to vote to put progressive bills over the top.


by georgep on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:36:50 AM EST

Re: Progressive Punch (none / 0)

When looking at these lists I always go to Russ Feingold and then decide from there.  When they have Dianne Feinstein rated as more progressive than Russ Feinglold, I don't take it seriously.


by Piuma on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:08:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive Punch (none / 0)

Love - 30!


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:33:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive Punch (none / 0)

Feingold gives the President a lot of deference on appointments, which means that there are many close votes on which he votes against the progressive position.

Progressive Punch scores use a birds of a feather methodology, which is about the best methodology available for evaluating who stands with whom in a voting body. But maverick Senators like Feingold or McCain can appear more conservative or more liberal than they are under that methodology. Obama is not a maverick and does not give deference to the President, so the Feingold explanation does not work for him.


by souvarine on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:51:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive Punch (none / 0)

souvarine, the "shooting the messenger" syndrome is alive and well in this thread.  Obama is way, way down the ranks when it comes to progressive values, but of course then the rankings site is attacked, because Obama supporters just don't want to face the truth.  


by georgep on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 02:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive Punch (none / 0)

Wow. Feingold less progressive than Feinstein?

Irregular Times has Obama at the top of the progressive scale, bested by only Feingold and Leahy.

http://progressivepatriots.com/senate/11 0byranking.html


by dmc2 on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:18:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Progressive Punch (none / 0)

I forgot that I should instead consult anonymous OBAMA SUPPORTERS writing on blogs rather than independent ranking sites.  Makes all the sense in  the world, yessiree.


by georgep on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 01:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

I don't really understand how anyone can argue the guy is afraid to take a tough stand on a controversial issue when he opposed the war back in 2002.  Surely that's an issue he could have ducked, it's not like they were voting on the war in Illinois.

If the war had turned out to be a cakewalk Obama's aspirations for higher office would have been dead and buried.  That showed political courage, and I really don't see how anyone can deny it.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:13:54 PM EST

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (2.00 / 1)

At the time he made one speech at a rally, he was running for re-election to a part-time state senate office from the district surrounding the University of Chicago - one of the most liberal districts in the United States of America.

Two years later, when he was a candidate for the US Senate, he said in interviews that he didn't know how he would have voted in 2002 if he had been in the US Senate. Now, he claims he was just lying in those 2004 interviews because he didn't want to jeopardize his big opportunity to give the keynote speech at the Kerry convention.

Of course, having been elected to the US Senate, he voted in favor of every continuing war funding bill from January 2005 until the spring of 2006 when he (and Clinton) voted against the emergency supplemental after it had enough votes to pass by an overwhelming majority of the Senate.

At least Clinton's position has been a continuous trajectory from voting for war authorization to voting against it.

Obama's appears more convoluted. He was against the war before he was for the war before he was against it again -- the only difference being which of the three offices over the last five years he was running for (state senate, US Senate, or President).


by hwc on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:49:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

Seems like Obama's showed courage and leadership. He opposed it when it was popular, then he's bucked popular opinion to favor a responsible withdrawal that won't cause even more problems (genocide?) in our wake.

Clinton on the other hand has stayed with the polls all the way. She's consistent on that point for sure.


by dmc2 on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

Yep,and he's funded a war, he supposedly was against from start. Phantom that?


by lonnette33 on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

Barack: knew it was a mistake, told everybody that it was a mistake, but then exhibits the statesmanship to accept moral responsibility for it anyways.

Hillary: voted for it, then jumps ship when the going gets tough.


by dmc2 on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:54:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

Obama took the Senate floor to passionately argue against a bill to "set a date certain," not just once, but on two separate occasions.  Suffice it to say, at that point he was strongly opposed to troop withdrawal from Iraq.  His position has changed big time since running for president.  


by georgep on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 02:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

I know you're being sarcastic, right?


by lonnette33 on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

No, not really.  I try to give credit where credit is due.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

It wasn't a courageous stand to take in the Illinois Senate.  He would actually have been going against the grain in that state otherwise.  Besides, I don't think anyone would have imagined Iraq to be a cakewalk.  It is basically impossible to score a "win" in that war, as Al-Quaida is a multi-layered group which is organized in countries we are not at war with (i.e. Pakistan, Saudi-Arabia, etc.)   Short of actually catching Bin-Ladin, no "cakewalk" could be ever assumed, and even that capture would be overshadowed by the failures at hand.  I don't think anyone felt that this was going to be a cakewalk, whether one supported the initial Iraq-vote or not.    


by georgep on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 02:03:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

Seriously you folks are insane. First is was Obama is an empty suit, all fluff no substance,  naïve and inexperienced. Now you are going after his record as a state senator. I thought being a state senator did not count as experience.  I guess it now proves that his experience is relevant and Senator Clinton has the least experience.
Obama's record in Illinois. Enjoy...
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/0 7/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC. html

Now how many bills did First Lady Hillary Clinton pass in from 1993-2000? How many tough votes did she vote for since she was elected as First Lady?  ZERO. I guess being PRESENT in a marriage counts as experience .  


John McCain: Drill, Drill, Surge!!!!!
by TennesseeGurl on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:17:27 PM EST

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

Well, yes, his record as a state senator shows that he is an empty suit, all fluff no substance, naïve and inexperienced.

Looking at the chart his big health care success is a bill to establish a commission to look at providing universal health care in Illinois. He touts punting UHC to a commission as his major experience. Not the kind of leadership on UHC I am looking for in a Democratic presidential nominee.


by souvarine on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

Ha, ha, ha!!! Break out the hateraide. You can show facts that he busted his butt in Illinos. I respect you and your candidate but this is proof that some folks are truly insane....


John McCain: Drill, Drill, Surge!!!!!
by TennesseeGurl on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 05:11:20 PM EST

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (1.00 / 1)

oh grow up and face facts. The man is an empty suit.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 05:26:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama, afraid to take a stand (none / 0)

The thing is, what kind of President would he be- he wouldn't be able to make any tough decisions and would sit on them for god knows how long letting them fester.  He needs to be told what to do instead of deciding it himself- he would be a horrible President.


by reasonwarrior on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 06:46:00 PM EST


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